FareedZakariaGPS.docx
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FareedZakariaGPS.docx
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FareedZakariaGPS
FAREEDZAKARIAGPS
IsRussiaaReliablePartner?
;InterviewWithPresidentSaakashvili
AiredMay23,2010-10:
00 ET
FAREEDZAKARIA,HOST:
ThisisGPS,THEGLOBALPUBLICSQUARE.WelcometoourviewersintheUnitedStatesandaroundtheworld.I'mFareedZakaria.
Thisweek,averydramaticstoryofoneman'sterrifyingexperienceinRussia,andit'sastorythatraisesmuchbiggerquestionsaboutthatcountryandwhereit'sheaded.
PartofRussia'smystery-andremember,WinstonChurchilloncedescribeditasariddlewrappedinsideamysteryhiddeninanenigma-isthegeographyandthehistory.Russiaisavastcountry,spanningninetimezones,borderingthreecontinents.Ithasgonethroughmajorgeopoliticaltrauma,havingwatcheditsmassivemultinationalempirecollapsealmostovernight.
UnderBorisYeltsin,Russiathenopeneditselfuptotheworldandembraceddemocracyandcapitalism,butitseemedtogetchaosandanarchywithahandfulofbigbusinessmenvirtuallysealingthestate'sassets.ThencameVladimirPutin,whorestoredorder.
ButwhathasnowemergedinRussiaisacountryinwhichthestateisfirmlyincontrol,butthecharacterofthatstateandthepeopleatthetophasmanypeopleworried.Andwhattheyworryaboutisnotjustwhat'sgoingoninsideRussia,butwhatitmeansfortherestoftheworldindealingwithRussia.
IsRussiaareliablepartner?
Canwedealwithit?
Canwemakearmscontrolagreementswithit?
AllthesequestionsinawaycomebacktothecentralmysteryandriddleaboutRussia.
WepresenttwointerviewswithpeoplewhohavehaddealingswithPutin'sRussia.First,anextraordinarystoryaboutanordinarymanwhosimplywouldn'taccommodatehimselftothebrutalityandcorruptionofthenewRussianstate.It'sarivetingtalewithaterribleending.
ThenthepresidentofGeorgia,MikheilSaakashvili,onhisdealingswithRussiatwoyearsaftertheGeorgianWar.
(BEGINVIDEOCLIP)
ZAKARIA:
Putinhassingledyououtpersonallyandsaidthathewantsyoueitherdeposedor-Ithinkevenoncehesuggestedthatifyouwerekilleditwouldbefine.MIKHEILSAAKASHVILI,GEORGIANPRESIDENT:
No,hebasicallywantedtohangmeby(ph)balls,whateveritimplies.ButI'vebeen-but,youknow,I-Itakeitlightly.
Heisruthless.HebasicallycomesfromthatoldKGBgenerationthatseestheworldinazero-sumgame.
(ENDVIDEOCLIP)
ZAKARIA:
Finallytwoexpertsmakesenseofallthis.
It'sagreatshow.Let'sgetstarted.
(BEGINVIDEOTAPE)
ZAKARIA:
Whatwehaveforyounowisanextraordinarystory,hundredsofmillionsofdollarsstolen,fingerspointedattopgovernmentofficials,torture,abuse,death-andthat'sjustthebeginningofwhatsoundslikeabest-sellingthriller.But,tragically,itisactuallyreallife.
And,atthecenterofitall,isourguest,WilliamBrowder.HerunsHermitageCapitalManagement,oncethelargestforeigninvestorinRussia.Let'slistentothestory.
Bill,thanksforjoiningus.
WILLIAMBROWDER,CEO,HERMITAGECAPITALMANAGEMENT:
Thanksforhavingme.
ZAKARIA:
1996,youdecidetogotoRussiaandsetupaninvestmentcompanythatisgoingtoinvestinRussia.
BROWDER:
SowhathappenedwasRussia,atthetime,in1996,hadgonethroughthisenormousprivatizationprogram,wherethephilosophyofthegovernmentwasinordertogofromcommunismtocapitalism,let'sjustgiveeverythingawayforfree.
AndsowesetupaninvestmentbusinesstoinvestinRussia,andithadgonevery,verywellforanumberofyears.AndthenwediscoveredthatRussia-wellthattheyhadsetupcapitalism,theyhaven'tputthe-soit'slike(ph)buildingahousewithoutputtingtheplumbinginthehouse.Therewasnolawsandtherewasnorulesatthetime,and,asaresult,therewasanenormousamountofcorruption,malfeasanceandotherterriblethingsgoingoninsidethecompaniesthatweinvestedin.
AndIfeltliketheonlywaythatIcouldresponsiblybeaninvestorinthesecompanieswastofightthecorruptioninthecompanies.
ZAKARIA:
Andyou,atthispoint,are-were-prettyquicklybecomethelargestforeigninvestorinRussia,right?
BROWDER:
IbecamethelargestforeigninvestorinRussia.Ourfunds,atthepeakofoursuccess,wasabout$4.5billionofforeignmoneyinvestedintheRussianstockmarket.
Andsowedevelopedastrategywhich-whichseemedabitcrazyatthetime,whichwaslet'sresearchhowtheydothestealing.Let'sfigureitallout,andthenlet'ssharetheresearchwiththeinternationalmedia.Andwedidthat.
ZAKARIA:
AndthisisjustaboutthetimethatVladimirPutinhascometopowerinRussia.SowhyisPutinallowingyoutodothis?
BROWDER:
IwasfightingwitholigarchswhoweretryingtostealmoneyfromthecompaniesIwasinvestinginandPutinwasfightingwiththesameoligarchswhoweretryingtostealpowerfromhim.
Andso,for-forthatperiodoftime,aswewereexposingthecorruptioninthesecompanies,thegovernmentwasacting.
ZAKARIA:
And-andwasthatpublicapprovalofwhatyouweredoing?
BROWDER:
Well,everybody-there'sonlyonegroupofpeoplethatdidn'tapproveofwhatIwasdoing,andthatwere-thatwasthepeoplewhowerestealingthemoneyfromthecompanies.Imean,ofcourse,whowouldn'tbehappyif-ifyoufindoutthatthebadguysaregettingfiredandcan'tstealmoneyfromthegascompanyortheelectricitycompanyorwhatever?
Buteverythingchangedallofasuddenin2003.In2003,inOctober,MikhailKhodorkovsky,whowastherichestmaninRussiaandtheheadoftheYukosoilcompany,wasflyingonaprivatejettoSiberia,andhewasarrestedontherunwayinSiberia.Andwhentheydidthat,theydidonethingwhichwaspsychologicallydevastatingforalltheotherrichpeopleinRussia,whichwastheytooktherichestmaninRussiaandtheyputhimintoacageandtheyallowedallthetelevisioncamerastocomeinandfilmhimsittinginacage.
Andimaginethatyouarethe17thrichestguyinRussia,sittingon-inyouryacht,parkedofftheCoted'AzurinFranceandyouturnonCNNandyouseetherichestguysittinginacage,andwhatdoyouwantdo?
Youwanttomakesureyou'renotsittinginthecage.
And,soonebyonebyone,theywentbacktotheKremlinandtheydeclaredtheirallegiance,and,allofasudden,they-
ZAKARIA:
TheirallegiancetoPutin?
BROWDER:
ToPutin.And,allofasudden,Putinnolongerwasatoddswiththeoligarchs.Unfortunately,Istillwas.
ZAKARIA:
SoyougoforabusinesstripaboardNovember,2005,andyoucomebacktotheairportinRussiaandwhathappens?
BROWDER:
SoIarrivedattheairport,asIhad250timesbeforeinthepastdecade.IwenttotheVIPloungeatSheremetyevo-2Airport,handedthemmypassport.Andwhat-whatshouldhavebeenafive-minuteprocess,whiletheyprocessthepassport,turnedintoanhour.Andafteranhourtherewasabunchofcommotionandabunchofofficerscameintotheloungeandtheycameuptomeandsaidyou'renotallowedintoRussia.Followme,Sir.
TheytookmedowntothedetentionareaoftheairportwheretheykeptmeforadayandthentheydeportedmeoutofRussia.
BROWDER:
Butthen,theRussiangovernmentdecidestogoafteryouinanotherway,whichisquiteextraordinary.
BROWDER:
Well,thenext-sothiswasnothing.Thispartofthestorywasnothingcomparedtowhathappenednext.
So,afterawhile,IgiveupontryingtogobacktoRussia,andIdosomethingwhich-whichI'mthankfulthatIwasabletodo,whichisItookallthemoneythatwehadinRussiaandIliquidateditandtookitoutofthecountry.Ithentookallofmypeopleoutofthecountryand-andIthought,moreorless,OK,thatwasanunpleasantsituation.Thatwasprettybad,but,youknow,timetomoveon.
Well,Iwasn'treallyabletomoveonbecausesomethingtrulyextraordinaryhappened,whichwasinJuneof2007,25officersfromtheMoscowInteriorMinistryraidedourofficeinMoscow,andanother25officersraidedtheofficeofourlawfirminMoscow,withaveryspecifictarget,whichistheywantedtogetholdofthestampsandsealsandarticlesofassociationofourinvestmentcompaniesthatwe-thatwehad-throughwhichwehadinvestedinwhenwemadeourinvestmentsinRussia.And-
ZAKARIA:
Theseweretheproofsofownershipofthecompanies,sothatiftheyhadthem,ineffect,theycouldexerciseauthoritywiththose-ofthosecompanies?
BROWDER:
Exactly.The-inorderto-totransferownership,todoalmostanyimportantactivityofthecountry-ofthecompany,youneedtohavethesespecialdocuments.
Sotheseguys,thepolice,theMoscowPolice,takeawaythesedocuments.Andthen,thenextthingweknow,wenolongerownourcompanies.Thecompanieshavebeentransferredintothenameofaconvictedmurderer.So-andtheonlywaytheycouldhavetransferredthecompanieswas-wasusingthedocumentsthattheMoscowPolicehadtaken.
Butthatwasjustthebeginningofthe-oftheunbelievablethingthathappened.Thenextthingwediscoveredwasthatourcompanieshadapparentlybeensuedincourtwithoutourknowledge,basedonforgedback-datedcontractsthatthe-thatwerecreatedusingallofthosestolenpapersfromouroffices.And-well,afterthe-duringthelawsuit,somelawyersshowupthatwe'veneverhired,thatweneverknewabout,todefendourcompanies.
ZAKARIA:
Claimingtorepresentyouand-
BROWDER:
Claimingtorepresentus.Butinsteadofdefendingourcompanies,theypleadguilty.Inafive-minutehearing,thejudgeinSt.PetersburgandinMoscowandKazan,whichwerethreecitiesinRussia,awardmorethanabilliondollarstothreeshellcompaniesagainstourcompanies,whichwenolongerowned.ZAKARIA:
So
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