乔姆斯基ChomskyIn First PersonWord文件下载.docx
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乔姆斯基ChomskyIn First PersonWord文件下载.docx
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,imperialism,themediaandtheroleofintellectuals.
November15,2001:
thereisabreakintheNorthEastmonsoon,anditisaclear,cooldayinThekkady.NoamChomskyisontheseconddayofhisfirstholidayinmanyyears,afive-daybreakfrompublicappearancesthattakesCarolChomskyandhimselftothecoast,thehillsandthecoastalbackwatersofKerala.Bothofthemhavespentmuchofthemorningreadingandreplyingtoe-mails-thetorrentthatdoesnotrecognisetimeorplace-andlookingattheInternet.Sheisnowattheayurvedaclinicnearby,andProfessorChomskysitsinawickerchairoutsidehiscottage,readingthenewspapersandpreparingforalengthyinterview,exclusivetoFrontline,withV.K.Ramachandran.ThisisthemostrecentofmanyinterviewsthathehasgivenFrontline;
thefirstwasinCambridge,Massachusetts,morethanadecadeago,duringtheGulfWar.Theinterview,interspersedwithconversation,goesonformorethananhourandahalf,andcoversmanyfields:
terrorismandtheattackonAfghanistan,imperialismandwar,themedia,andathemeonwhichChomskyfirstwroteinthemid-1960s,theroleofintellectualsinsociety.
V.K.Ramachandran:
Noam,whatdoyouseetobethestrategicsignificanceofthenewmilitarysituationinAfghanistan?
NoamChomsky:
IassumethattheU.S.willmoreorlesstakecontroloverAfghanistan.U.S.militaryforceissooverwhelmingthatitcan'
tfailtosubdueabasicallydefencelesscountry.ThisisquitedifferentfromtheSovietinvasion.TheSovietswerefacingamajormercenarymilitaryforce,backedbytheUnitedStatesandotherpowers.Theyalsohadadditionalconstraints:
theyneverbombedcitiesordestroyedthem,andtheyneverusedwhatamounttoweaponsofmassdestruction,likecarpetbombsordaisy-cutters.Assumingthatthisoffensivesubduesthecountrymostly,theUnitedStateswillprobablydelegateauthoritytoreconstitutethecountrytosomeotherhands,maybetheUnitedNationsormaybeitslocalallies.Thencomesaveryuncertainsituation.
DESHAKALYANCHOWDHURY/AFP
ChomskyinCalcutta.
ThestrategicconsequenceswillbeparticularlysignificantforPakistan.Fortherestoftheregion,itishardtopredict;
itdependshowlocalpopulationswillrespondtowhathashappened.Forexample,willthepopulationofSaudiArabiaremainmoreorlessquiescentwhileobservingthedestructionofanIslamiccountrynearby?
Nobodyreallyknows.ExperiencedcorrespondentsinSaudiArabiahavebeencomparingthesituationtheretoIraninthelate1970s,whereeventswerecompletelyunpredictedbyIntelligenceservicesoranyoneelse.Theseareveryvolatile,unpredictablesituations,inwhichnoonecantellwhenapopularexplosionwilltakeplace.AndifsuchaneventoccursintheGulfregion,itwillbeofextraordinarystrategicimportance.
Ramachandran:
Doyouthinkthecurrentmilitarysituationwillencourageright-wingtriumphalismandserveasjustificationformilitaryaction,hereandelsewhere?
Chomsky:
IntheUnitedStates,undoubtedly.Youcanpredictthatanymilitarytriumphofagreatpowerwillleadtoamoodoftriumphalism,whichisverybadnewsfortheworld.Itfreesoptionsforfurtherresorttomilitarypoweronthegroundsthatsuchpowerhasbeenseentosucceed.Whenviolencesucceedsonitsownterms,itincreasesthelikelihoodoffurtherresorttoviolence.
HerethequestionisreallyhowtheU.S.populationwillreactandhowthepowerfulallieswillreact.WilltheybesupportiveoffurtherunilateralapplicationofU.S.powerinthisfashion?
Ifthatistolerated,itisverybadnewsfortheworld.
WhatisyourassessmentofthepotentialoftheNorthernAllianceasaforcewithpoliticallegitimacyinthecountryandasaforcecapableofgoverning?
Theso-calledNorthernAllianceisnotmuchofanalliance.Itsmembersarewarlordswhohavebeeninbitterconflictwithoneanother.Infact,themassivedestructionthattheycarriedouttenyearsagowhentheywereincontrolwasmostlyfromfightingeachother.Someofthemhaveaveryuglyrecord.GeneralDostum,whoisthe'
conqueror'
ofMazar-e-Sharif,wasaGeneralintheSovietArmywhowaspartoftheSovietinvasionofAfghanistanuntiltheend.AftertheSovietswithdrew,heretainedcontrolofhisregion.
TheU.S.willcertainlytrytoforgethemintoamoreorlessobedientgroupthatlistenstocentralorders,whichultimatelywillcomefromWashington.However,whethertheycanimposedisciplineonthesegroupsisimpossibletoguess.Thesegroupsarenon-Pashtun;
theyareTadjik-UzbekwithtiestotheCentralAsiancountriesandare,formanyAfghans,asortofforeignforce.TheUnitedStateshas,ofcourse,beentryingtobringinPashtunAfghanstorepresentsomehowtheroughly40percentofthepopulationthatisPashtun.WhetherthereareanycrediblefiguresamongthebiggestsectorofthepopulationwhocanjoinaU.S.-runcoalitionisjustunclearatthemoment.
Whatarethepresentandpotentialhumanitarianconsequencesofthiswar?
Forobviousreasons,theWesternmediaanddoctrinalsystemaretryingveryhardtosuppressthatquestion.First,thethreatofbombingandthebombingitselfhavealreadycausedahumanitariancatastrophe.EvenbeforeSeptember11,Afghanistanwasinadirepredicamentfromahumanitarianpointofview.Manymillionsofpeople-theUnitedNationssays6to7million-weresurviving,andbarelythat,frominternationalaid.Withthethreatofbombing,internationalaidworkerswerewithdrawnandfooddeliverieswerecut.AfewdaysafterSeptember11,theU.S.demandedthatPakistancutofffooddeliveries.Internationalaidagencieswereextremelybitteraboutthisandcondemnedquiteharshlythethreatsthatwereterminatingthedeliveryofbadlyneededhumanitarianaid(intheUnitedStates,thesereportswereeithersuppressedorbarelymentioned).Asofnow,fooddeliveriesarewellbelowwhatwereconsiderednecessarytohelpthepeoplejusttosurvive.
Itisnotsimplyfood;
peopleneedshelterandblankets.Hugenumbersofpeoplehavebeendrivenfromtheirhomesandhavefledintothecountryside.Thereisatleastsomehopeofgivingadegreeofsustenancetothosewhofledacrosstheborder,toIranorPakistan.Butapparentlymanymillionshavefledintothecountryside,anditisimpossibletoreachthem.Forexample,acoupleofweeksago,Westernreportersestimatedthatabout70percentofthepopulationofKandaharhadfled.ItmaywellbethatKandahar,wheretheU.S.destroyedelectricityandwatersupplies(whichamountstobiologicalwarfare),isalmostunlivable.Wheredidthesepeoplego?
Theyareofftothecountryside,intoregionsthat,firstofall,lackaccesstofood,exceptinanextremelylimitedfashion.Theseareasarealsoprobablythemostheavilyminedintheworld.TheUnitedNationshadbeencarryingoutlimitedmine-clearingoperationsbutthosewereterminatedwhenallinternationalworkerswerewithdrawn.Nowthepeoplehaveanadditionalproblem:
theareaisprobablylitteredwithclusterbombs.Clusterbombsaremuchmoredangerousthanmines.Theyareviciousanti-personnelweaponsthatsendoutflechettesthattearpeopletoshreds.Theyjustsitthereandifachildpicksoneup,orafarmerhitsonewithahoe,itexplodes.
Whatdoesabombofthissortlooklike?
Itisalittlethingthatachildwouldpickupthinkingitisatoy.Infact,theyapparentlylookprettymuchlikethefooddrops,exceptthattheyaresmaller.
Thesameishappeninginmanyplaces.TheestimatesarethatinnorthernLaosthereareprobablythousandsofdeathsayear,30yearsafterthebombing.InLaosthePentagonwouldnotevenprovideinstructionsonhowtodefusethemtoavolunteerBritishde-mininggroupthatwasworkingthere.InKosovoaswell,theU.S.refusedtoremoveclusterbombs.
InAfghanistannobodyisgoingtoclearthesethings.Soinadditiontothemines,therewillbeclusterbombsunexplodedandverylittleabilitytobringinfoodorblanketsortoprovideshelter.Manypeoplewilldisappearandnoonewillevenknowwhathappenedtothem.NooneisgoingtodoacarefulcensusofAfghanistantofindoutwhattheeffectswereofthebombingandofthethreatofbombing.
Theremaybeanotherproblemlooming.Beforethebombingbegan,theFoodandAgricultureOrganisationoftheUnitedNationswarnedthattherewasagravehumanitariancrisistakingplace.Afewdayslater,afterthebombingbegan,theyannouncedthatbytheirestimateabout80percentoftheplantingofgrain,whichapparentlytakesplacearoundthen,hadbeendisrupted.
Averygraphicillustrationoftheinvestigationofcasualtiescomesfromthetwomajoratrocitiesthatendedthemillennium,SerbianinKosovo,andIndonesianinEastTimor.
Thesearetwomajoratrocities,buttheyarequitedifferent.TheSerbianatrocitiesinKosovooccurredaftertheNATObombingbegan.Westernideologuestriedtosuppressthisfact,naturally,butwehaveextensivedocumentationonitfromtheWest.
TheBritish,whowerethehawkishelementinthealliance,havenowreleasedtheirinternalrecords.UpuntillateJanuary,theBritishliterallyregardedtheKLAasbeingthemainsourceofkilling.Although,justgiventheproportionofforce,itseemshardtobelieve,thatistheirestimate,andthatiswhatRobinCookandLordRobertsonweresayinginlateJanuary.
Afterthebombing,substantialatrocitiesbegan.Thatiswhenthepopulationwasdrivenoutofthecountryandtruckloadsofbodieswereto
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